Episode 05: Making Sense of Mindfulness with Keith MacPherson
Keith MacPherson 0:00
One way that I find this mindfulness stuff can really integrate, is when we become conscious of the pace that we're moving. And when the mind - that conscious mind part of us, the hamster wheel, as you referenced - is running the show, our pace just goes so much faster because we're trying to keep up to all the demands in our head. But when we take control back and we go, "Hang on, no, I'm going to slow down a little bit," I find that I accomplished more, by trying less.
Matt Johnston 0:29
The human experience is the greatest project any of us will undertake. It's often the one we spend the least amount of time working on. My name is Matt Johnston. I'm a self-professed personal development junkie, retired pro golfer, and now work for an organization that provides employee and health benefits to hundreds of thousands of people. It should be common sense to realize that what happens at work is what people bring home and what happens at home comes to them to work, but that's too often ignored. That's why each week I hope to uncover a little more around what it means to be a human. working and living in the 21st century, will be learning from experts having conversations and getting insights into all those things that fall at the intersection of life and work, emotional and physical health skills and money. All the relationships we navigate each day. And of course, the purpose and meaning we all desire. This is The Human Assignment.
Welcome to or welcome back to The Human Assignment podcast. I'm thrilled to share conversation I recently had with someone who's become a good friend of mine in the last few years, Keith MacPherson Keith is a musician, mindfulness practitioner, coach, speaker and now author. And I want to have Keith on the show, because while I mean he's just he's an amazing guy. And I wanted to focus on his new book Making Sense of Mindfulness, where he breaks down the buzzword of mindfulness and shares some practical steps to integrate this powerful practice into our daily lives. As we jumped into the conversation, though, we ended up talking about far more. He discussed his transition from the world of music, where he was a professional musician and professional touring musician, to the world of personal development where you find him most often now. We discussed his role as a coach and the work that he does with his clients and also discuss leadership and the leadership work he does with both companies and executives.
He's got some great perspectives and ideas and on leadership and the future of leadership and I was quite inspired by some of the things that he shared. As you'll quickly see in this podcast, Keith is a is a soulful guy. He's a he's one of the kindest people I've think I've ever met. And he's a spiritual guy. And it certainly - you certainly hear it in the podcast. A lot of the ideas that he has, come has come back to the concept of quieting your mind, to getting yourself to a place where you access your intuition. Keith is one of those people that just has such a great influence on any room that he walks into. And I noticed myself slowing down every time I'm in contact with him.
And I just I noticed the impact he has on others when I get to get to spend time with him in a group so it's just always a treat to hang out with Keith and I'm thrilled to share him with you. If you want to learn more about the work that he's doing, check out his podcast, Let's Connect with Keith MacPherson or visit him on his website at Keith MacPherson dot com. Without further ado, it's my pleasure to share my chat with Keith MacPherson.
Keith, welcome to the show.
Keith MacPherson 3:42
Matt. Great to be here.
Matt Johnston 3:44
Thanks so much, for taking the time in joining us. You've become a good friend of mine over the last year. I met you about a year and a half ago maybe, but we sat down about this time and I left breakfast at Stella's restaurant and thought, "God I, I'm going to become friends with Keith MacPherson. This guy is this guy is amazing."
Yeah, I felt the same way. Actually, I remember even earlier than when we met for breakfast, I was giving a talk for Good Life Fitness in Winnipeg. And I think it was at the end of the presentation and you and, I think, maybe your brother or somebody you're with, you're waiting around to chat with me. And then I was like, so I was so intrigued. I could feel the energy of you. I was like, I got to talk to this guy. And then you were nowhere to be found you. I was like he left. I was so glad you reach back out.
I stalked you down. It's awesome. It's so great to be connected with you. And you know, thank you for being here. And I'm excited to talk about a wide range of topics today. Yeah, before we dig into your story and hear more about what you're doing in the world. I just thought I'd start with asking What does i ka pono manawa mean.
Oh, I love it. You said, so Hawaiian man, i ka pono manawa.
There we go. Thank you. Oh no man.
Keith MacPherson 5:05
Well, this is a saying it from ancient Hawaii, okay, and I bring up Hawaii in a lot of my work and my writing and my speeches. Hawaii's had a huge impact on me. I, about 15 years ago, I came across a woman in Winnipeg, who was running a school at the time, and she was teaching all about Hawaiian shamanism and this whole methodology called Huna Kahni and she had studied with a Kahuna over in Hawaii for years and I guess her whole path was to teach and to just bring people together that wanted to learn about this. And I just came across her path in the most ironic way. About 15 years ago, I was going through a breakup, and I went to see this woman, she's called herself a medical intuitive.
And so, I was sitting there in this chair and she literally read all my energies and it was just this really strange experience. And it was like she gave me all this information. And she said, "You should go see this woman named Catherine who works in the Hawaiian field of shamanism." She might be able to clear your energies at the time. I'm like, "What is all this woowoo going on?" So, I said, "Okay, well, I'm curious." So, I went and saw this woman, Catherine. And I had a session with her, I laid on one of those massage tables. And it was like this crazy experience, and I can't even put words to it. And at the end of the session, I said, "Do you teach this stuff? Because I am so intrigued about what just took place here, something energetic shifted?" And she said, "Yeah, for sure." And then years went by, and I got a phone call from her. She said, the classes start this day, you'll be there.
So, this is a long roundabout to what i ka pono manawa means, but anyways, I ended up signing up for these courses in Hawaiian culture and shamanism. And one of the profound takeaways from the whole thing is this Hawaiian greeting which is i ka pono manawa. It's a real foundational part of this training. Loosely translated into English economy means everything is happening perfectly on time. So back in ancient Hawaii, this was a greeting people would say i ka pono manawa to each other meaning, our meeting here right now is perfectly on time. Like you have things to teach me, I have things to share with you.
And I think about I tell this story, because at the time, I didn't realize that this was all happening perfectly on time, but to run into this medical intuitive, and then to run into Catherine, my teacher and to be taught all of this wisdom from ancient Hawaii. I look back now and I realized how perfectly on time that always to inform the work that I'm doing now. I believe that even right now as we're sitting here, this is i ka pono manawa that we would connect that this amazing podcast is launching that we're able to have these conversations today.
Matt Johnston 7:51
Yeah, I love it. And it you know, that leads so perfectly into the conversation today because you know, when I was - from the outside looking in, when I look at your path you started as a musician and most - when you when you hear the name Keith MacPherson especially around the Canadian parts you're very famous as our rock star. You had an appearance on Canadian Idol and had a very successful band Keith and Renee and now when people see your name in the in the news or see your name it's associated to mindfulness and coaching and your new podcast. Making sense of mindfulness and now you're an author and so I'm just I you know as it relates to i ka pono manawa, how does how does that transition happen? Finalists that Canadian Idol moving into writing about mindfulness exactly?
Keith MacPherson 8:50
Speaking on, that's great question. Well, I you know, it wasn't all completely calculated. And although i ka pono manawa is a nice sentiment, it doesn't always feel like i ka pono manawa, like it doesn't always feel like things are happening perfectly on time. And for me, probably about 10 years ago now, I was on tour with my band Keith and Renee, we were touring the east coast of America. And it was at a time where music was really changing, like the whole industry was changing. We were - we just put out a new album, CD back in the day, and things were just becoming more and more digitized.
And that whole movement towards like Apple Music and Spotify and streaming was happening. And it was really challenging because we'd be on the road and we'd be touring. And our income was just completely getting depleted because people would just go on Napster and buy - or not even buy - get our stuff for free. And so, it was a really, really challenging time as an artist. And I remember being on tour with Rene and thinking, geez, like this is so excruciatingly painful, you know, we're playing these clubs for, you know, 10-15 people, no one's buying CDs. We're barely making ends meet. I was so discouraged. I was really jaded.
And I remember being on tour, and my mom had given me the CD just before I left on that tour by a guy named Dr. Wayne Dyer. And she said, "I just I know you're having a really hard time here with the band and trying to make ends meet. And there's this guy Wayne Dyer, you should listen to this CD in your rental car." I one day popped it into the car in between tour dates. And Renee and I were listening. And the words of this man just completely resonated with me. He was talking about all of these really powerful practices, you know, the law of attraction and how your thoughts really start creating reality.
And it was really positive. And I remember listening to all of this and thinking, "Well, Is this true?" And the rest of the tour I just felt myself slowly transitioning into this state of, "Yeah, like, if I think about, you know, what I'm thinking about is going to shift the way I'm seeing things." And like literally, it started happening almost instantly where I was like, man, I would love to have an organic meal on the road because we're eating all this fast food, literally, we get on the highway, and there'd be a sign "organic restaurant" and we'd pull off, you know, and it just felt like there was a flow. So, I attribute a lot of the early part of my transition from complete music into mindfulness to Wayne Dyer, who's become a huge teacher of mine. I got to study with him for years. And I think he was one of the first people that cracked me open to this idea of when you're present in the moment, and you're aware of the thoughts that you're thinking, you actually have this opportunity to create the reality that you're experiencing.
It's quite a profound thing. And that's where that got started. It was a very slow transition into the mindfulness work. I developed my own practice right around that I was studying with Catherine, my teacher, from Hawaii and, and then when I actually studied with him, and then I guess one thing led to the next I also got interested in yoga practice started teaching that. And before too long, I found myself getting asked to give talks about mindfulness, which I honestly at the time did not know much about. But I'm a yes person. I was like, "Okay, I'll do it." And I found myself in a room with all these teachers, actually, who were expecting me to be an expert on the topic of mindfulness. And at the time, I didn't know much. So, we ended up - I said, mindfulness is about being present.
And then we did a yoga class. And I felt like a complete fraud at the time, because I was like, I know nothing. I got thrown into this. But it led me on this journey to really get curious about, well, what is mindfulness? And I kept hearing this word, it was a buzzword. It's become such a buzzword in our culture. And so, it's been just a real journey of researching and integrating this practice into my own life to the point where I now have a lot to share on the topic.
Matt Johnston 12:49
Well, so, mindfulness, it is a buzzword. We hear it all over. Yeah. What is it?
Keith MacPherson 12:56
Yeah. What is mindfulness? That's a great question. You know, I love children's books because I find them so easy to understand. And when it gets too intellectual, I find for myself at least it's like, "Oh my gosh, like, what does this mean?" And there's an author named Susan Kaiser Greenland, who's a children's author. And she writes a lot on the topic of mindfulness. And I love her definition. She says, mindfulness is paying attention with kindness to yourself, other people and the world around you. And it sounds so simple, right? Paying attention with kindness to yourself and everyone around you. Yet, when you really think about it, it's quite challenging to integrate that, you know, just when you think about that first line, paying attention with kindness to yourself, how often are we just up in our own minds beating ourselves up with thoughts like, I shouldn't have done that, or I'm not doing a good enough job or, you know, I need to do better.
I need to do more and be more. And so, I think that in its essence, mindfulness is really about paying attention coming back to the present moment when our mind is wandering. Often all of these stories, especially the ones that are beating us up, and cultivating kindness in the moment, and as we build that within ourselves, we end up sharing that with the world around us as well. You know, Wayne used to say it, you can't give away what you don't have. So why not build this and cultivate this practice of kindness to ourself, so that we can literally share that with the world around us.
Matt Johnston 14:24
It sounds so simple.
Keith MacPherson 14:26
It really is, Matt. But it's a lifetime of practice.
Matt Johnston 14:30
I'm holding your new book in my hand Making Sense of Mindfulness, which I love.
Thank you.
The subtitle, Five Principles to Integrate Mindfulness Practice in Your Daily Life. You know, I've got this dog eared and highlighted and you've just done an awesome job here. But it feels accessible what you have here. And so, I will I'll start off by asking, why write a book about mindfulness? Yeah, there's that - you said it's there's lots out there. Yeah. You know why? Why write your own?
Keith MacPherson 15:06
Yeah, well, I didn't have much of a choice. I've got a morning practice that I do. It's like almost every morning that I get up, I meditate, and I write, I write at least a page and I free write. So, I literally just channeled through whatever is coming through intuitively without editing or thinking too much. And one particular morning I was writing, and my hand just kept going. And it was all around what I had been talking about with the topic of mindfulness. And I got this cue internally that said, you'll be writing a book about this, it was just this inner knowing. And I have to tell you, the resistance was so big, you know, I actually, that after that first day of writing about five pages towards this book in my scribbler, I took a week off because I tried to go back and I couldn't I had this resistance in me that was like, "What do you know about writing a book? You're not an author? Like what do you know about this?"
But something on the other side of that just kept urging me saying, like, get to the page, right? There's things that need to come through here. And so finally I mustered up the courage to go back. And literally almost every day for the next year and a half, I just channeled out this book it came through, and it was handwritten. And it was based on some of the talks that I'd been giving around mindfulness and a lot of the experiences that I've kind of correlated back to my experiences in the world of mindfulness. And yeah, before too long, I had two scribblers just completely written, and this book just was born. So, when I say I didn't really have much of a choice, it's because I just kept getting knocked over the head intuitively with you got to write this, you know, and I do think that my approach to this topic is authentic. As far as I know. It was really channeled from a place that I would call a reference as the higher self.
Some people would call that spirit as a songwriter, it's that place where I don't know where the song comes from. But it's like, there's something out there in the ethers that just kind of channels through and all of a sudden there's a song written. And it was the same kind of experience writing this book. So, it's my hope that it resonates with people. I tried to write it from a very personal place. One of my favorite singer songwriters, Harry Chabon, back in the 60s, I heard him interviewed, and he said, "Don't write about what you don't know," like, "Write about what you know, write about the things you did." And so that was really a big influential part of, of this was taking the word mindfulness, which is, in some ways, quite an intellectual term of like, yeah, we're gonna bring integrate mindfulness into the workplace or into our lives. But it's like, how do you make that accessible? And I found the best way is to, to share stories to share personal experiences, of how I came to discover this practice.
Matt Johnston 17:55
So, since the book was released, you've been all over the map doing book tours and talking to raving fans. Yeah. Including folks from our office, what have you found to be some of the some of the best takeaways for people some of the things that have there been? Have there been trends in what people come back to you with?
Keith MacPherson 18:17
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's a lot of different practices that I outline in the book. And there's a few in particular that I hear a lot of feedback on. One of them is a technique that I caught in the book; I call it the hot breath. And it's a really powerful practice. Ha in Hawaii means breath. Like you can even hear it in the word Hawaii. Our breath is our life force.
And so often, especially in the world we're living in right now where it's just - we're bombarded by so much coming at us, you know, information overload, and all of the tension and the pressure and the stress that so many of us are experiencing. Our breath literally tends to vanish because we just don't even think to breathe. And one of the implications of stress is that our breath gets really shallow. And what's interesting is when the mainlanders first went over to Hawaii, way back in ancient times - one of the first things the Hawaiians noted was that the people from the mainland, don't know how to breathe, you know, we're just so tight and we're so wound up. So, this hot breath is a technique that people have found really useful. That helps you integrate back into the present moment, your mind, your conscious mind, and your physical body. The breath is almost like a connector.
So, when you're overthinking and overanalyzing in your head to take one of these hot breaths, focuses your attention back into the physical body. And to do it, it's, I'll try to explain it just a real brief version of it here is energy flows, where your attention goes. If you consider that right here, your energy is going to flow to where your attention is. going. So, with this breath, it's literally you take a deep breath in through your nose and the hot breath out, it's like you're fogging a mirror on a cold day just right or like warming your hands up like we would do in Winnipeg, where we're from, right. But the difference here is that you're - while you're doing it, you're focusing on to what the winds are called PiCo points.
So, when I focus on my inhale, breath, I bring all of my attention to just above the crown of my head, and I breathe in. And then as I have breath out, I focus all of my attention down and out through my feet. And I do that four times. And what's amazing is just by focusing on those two PiCo points, it's almost like I'm watching my breath flow through, it resets me into the moment it like grounds me here. And all of the worry that was happening outside of this present moment, subsides at least for a little bit, and I get this kind of feeling of spaciousness and clarity. I'm really just giving you a brief kind of Coles Note version of what how this practice works. But that one in particular seems to be really popular in the book.
Matt Johnston 21:11
You know, when you use the word mindfulness, especially in the workplace, but just in general, people think of something either woowoo or, you know, they think it's - you're sitting on a cushion somewhere and clearing all thoughts. They've got the, you know, dancing snake in front of your something. And, as you share that technique in a different way. It's very similar to what, to what athletes were, are taught. So, it's a reset that I've been taught by various coaches as a golfer. And so, I know that you work, you're a coach, and I want to better understand what that means. You work with executives, you work with people in, you know, teachers and you know, all sorts of professionals how to how do you translate? How do you translate this stuff to them?
Keith MacPherson 22:01
Yeah, well, one of the big bridges that I've been finding is how mindfulness integrates with leadership. And when we're talking about organizations in particular, right now, we're kind of in a crisis mode, right? A lot of the studies they've been doing from a place called the leadership circle, which is where I've had a lot of my training as a coach, they find that approximately 80% of the workplaces operating in what they call reactive mode, meaning people are literally just responding to all of the stress that's coming in all of the demands that are coming in.
They talk about living in a VUCA world right now. VUCA, meaning volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity, right? I mean, this is really the state that a lot of us are in the workplace environment, and with the invention of technology, and all of the business and how everything's sped up. It's like very, very challenging these days to navigate the waters of just even competition and all these things that are happening. And so, when you think about it, you know, 80% of people in the workplace are in reactive mode, meaning they're literally just responding to all of this and reacting. And it's almost as if the outside world has got them, meaning it's controlling them, they have they lose their actual ability to be in control, because they're working, I guess, ultimately in fear mode, basically, of what's going to happen and oh my gosh, right.
So if you think about the practice of mindfulness, the invitation here is to help people move from a place of reactive mode to what in the coaching world, I call it, Creative Leadership, where as opposed to being a leader from the outside in, you're literally leading from the place of inside out, where you're relying a lot more on your intuition, your-self authored meaning. You're taking some pretty scary risks at times, but you're speaking from a place of intuition. And what the they found all of the research that they've been doing with the leadership circle over the last 20 years is that leaders that come from this place of creative internal self-authored, they're the ones that are having the most effect in the businesses in terms of business performance and leadership effectiveness, they find people that are operating in that more creative place where they've got it as opposed to it, having them if that makes sense.
There's just there's a lot more success in terms of the effectiveness of the business and their leadership. So, the mindfulness techniques, although they may appear quite woowoo, to especially someone in reactive mode, that's like, I don't have time for that I'm so busy. what they find is that you know that 20% of leaders that are in creative, they actually take time every day to meditate. They take time to slow down and go for that walk at lunch. They they're learning how to listen internally to their own inner knowing. And so, the real entryway to this is literally things like taking a hot breath. There are a few hot breaths in a stressful moment to just get clear and to listen and to go, what is it that we need to do here? And then having the courage to act on it and go, "Okay, I'm going to listen to this intuition. I'm going to take the risk; I'm going to put it out there. Because if I don't, we might not move this forward." Right?
And so often that happens, you just sit in, I've sat in on business meetings and just kind of observed as a coach, how often is it that someone's at the front of the room? And they're like, "Does anybody have any ideas?" And it's just dead silence. No one speaks, because people are so scared to speak because it's like, what if I'm, it's all based on limiting beliefs. What if I'm going to fail? You know, what if I don't say the right thing, and I lose my job? I mean, these are very common fears for people. But the truth is more people have lost their job for not speaking up, then leading from a place of courage leading from a place of authenticity.
Matt Johnston 25:51
Isn't that so true?
Keith MacPherson 25:52
Yeah. So, I think there's a lot of powerful correlation between mindfulness practice and leadership and in the workplace, and it's time to demystify all the woowoo stuff that's going on around this practice.
Matt Johnston 26:06
Agreed. So, so now you know you're a coach, and we're just getting a taste of what that might look like. What is coaching?
Keith MacPherson 26:18
I like to think of coaching as pausing in the middle of your busy life, to sit down and have a meaningful conversation with a depth that you normally wouldn't have the opportunity to, because you're so busy living your day to day. Yeah, so that's essentially how I think about it. I'm on the coaching side as a coach. It's my job as a coach to sit with people and to listen, to listen to what's going on, to not necessarily give advice, but to ask questions to get curious to evoke a place of curiosity in that person.
I really hold the belief that people are naturally creative and resourceful, and whole. Get so often we don't give people that credit, we try to solve their problems, we try to fix them, we try to tell them what they should do. And with the coaching experience, it's a little bit different than that, where you you're sitting with somebody as a coach, and you're, you're listening very deeply. And then you're asking questions about what you're hearing, and you're assisting that person and deepening their awareness of who they are, and what their life is calling them towards, you know, their life purpose and what they're wanting out of life, and then holding accountability for that person to move forward into what it is that they truly want to create in their life.
Matt Johnston 27:37
So, what sort of people would come to you for coaching?
Keith MacPherson 27:41
Yeah, good question. I mean, a whole wide variety of people come for coaching. Yeah, I do coach a lot of senior executives and on the business side of things, but like you're saying early, I do teach coach, a lot of teachers that come. I do a lot of work with teachers. I love teachers. They are So important in our world, man, I coach privately to one on one with all sorts of different types of people. You know, I think this is a very universal practice and it's one of my visions to really make this more and more accessible for people.
Matt Johnston 28:16
I love coaching. I obviously worked with coaches in the past, both in sport and coming out of it. And your definition and you know, this this idea of holding people as creative, whole resourceful, yeah, it puts them in the driver's seat, which is which is exciting. But it does feel it like you your life coach, and you sort of roll your eyes why do I - is there is does that mean there's something wrong with my life? Why do I need this? So I I'm just trying to for someone out there thinking about, you know, I have these big dreams in my life and what can you tell them today about either going to get a coach or the work that you do that might support them is the first step in that journey?
Keith MacPherson 28:58
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's simple into name that there is a little bit of this sort of taboo cultural thing around coaching. And it gets mixed up sometimes with counseling. So sometimes what people will come, and they think they always have to have a problem to solve. Yeah, you know, and I think I mean, sometimes Yes, there are problems that show up. But a lot of times, the conversations are more about what do I want to create more of in my life, where, where am I most alive in my life, where's the energy here that that I'm being pulled towards. And a lot of times when people find that a lightness that's in them, they also realize that a lot of times they're holding themselves back from moving towards that alive place because we're so socially conditioned to believe that we, we can't really move towards it because we're not good enough.
A lot of times our limiting beliefs get in the way, and we don't even realize it, you know, because more in our lives and we A lot of us hold blind spots to those beliefs. I think about coaching is just this opportunity to have conversation with yourself early and to start noticing, like, where are the places that I'm holding myself back from greatness? And also asking questions like, what is it that I truly want to create? Like, what's my dream, which is also part of the mindfulness framework of like, what is my dream? So somebody that has never experienced this before, I mean, I think it can be quite scary to take that first step of going to get some coaching, you know, because it's, it can be kind of scary to, to take an honest look at your life. But the alternative that is to be playing in what I would maybe consider mediocrity, meaning you're not really necessarily living from a place of courage and authenticity, you're hanging out in false safety, it's actually less safe to hang out there than to step towards what life's calling you towards.
I just - anyone listening that's considered the idea of trying out life coaching, I highly encourage you to do it. It's it will move you towards That place of Creative Leadership that I was talking about earlier. it'll, it'll help you develop that place of learning how to self-author, learning how to trust your own instincts. And that's one of the greatest qualities of the leaders in our world are those people that really know how to trust their inner vision, and then take action towards it.
Matt Johnston 31:20
One of the things that I come across people all the time, just in the in the work that I'm doing with user interviews and roundtable discussions and just general conversations, coaching, what have you, and the amount of people that I talk to that are in transition in some, some kind in their life, and especially professional transition, either dissatisfied in where they are, you know, there's the statement of like, I'm not quite sure how I got here, and I'm looking for something more or, or sort of out of their comfort zone, you know, in a position that is over their head. Yeah, you'll feel scary and life's coming at them from all you know, as you as you expressed earlier, what's the first step? You know, they, of course could go online and find a life coach.
But you know, the as I look at as I think about your new book here, and in the five principles, it's a bit of a bit of a roadmap to take these steps yourself. So, what were some things that those people can do? Yeah, well, you know, I think one of the biggest pieces here is learning how to trust your intuition, learning how to trust your inner knowing. And so often we second guess ourselves. There is a part of my book that I speak about. If you think about your conscious mind, this is the part of your mind that is always making decisions. It's quite analytical. It's the part of you that's perhaps loves to do lists, you know, and it's always kind of trying to figure out what it wants and what it wants.
Next, there's this other part of you that I might reference is your unconscious mind. This is the place that tends to host your Intuition like that inner knowing it's the part of you that holds all memory. It's the part of you that operates it has feelings and emotions, it really picks up on the senses. I think of these two parts of our mind is like two partners in a relationship, right? We've got the head and the heart might be another way to say it. You know, your mind and your gut feeling. And so often those two partners are out of alignment with each other. Right? Most of us have been conditioned to operate in our thinking mind, that's where we spend most of our time in our conscious thinking mind. And even when we get intuition, you know, a really basic example would be, you know, your, your belly starts rumbling around lunchtime, and it's like, feed me. And what is what does our mind do?
It's like, you're too busy to eat right now. Like, you don't have time to pause and eat. We don't listen, right? We don't listen to those inner gut feeling. So those inner knowings. It's amazing teachers. They've got the strongest bladders in the world because they don't take a bathroom break during the day. Their minds convince them that they're too busy. One of the quickest - no, I wouldn't say quickest, but one of the most accessible things that I've found is to get these two partners internally to start learning how to work with each other, your mind and your heart. So how do you do it? Well, it really requires the mind the part that's always going to learn how to become more of a listener. Because when we when we train that part of our mind to just start listening, the answers a lot of times are like right there. They want to be heard.
It's like that gut knowing, you know, I find women have this more naturally than men. You know, like that kind of mums always know energy, how your mum always kind of knew. And it's like, so one practice I do is I'll close my eyes in a moment where I'm confused or I'm stressed or I'm like, going through a transitional moment. I'll close my eyes. I'll take a few breaths. And I'll invite my mind to just tune in and listen to my intuition that other partner, and I might even take my hand and place it on my heart or on my chest, so that my mind just starts focusing. And as I'm breathing, I just asked myself, like, what is it that I truly need to know right now? And the first thing that pops up from my intuition is really what I listen to. And I catch it very often that my brain will go well, is that actually your intuition? Like, I don't know. But usually the first instinct that comes to you, what is it that I truly need right now? You know, it's like it comes it's it just pops up.
And as we get more and more tuned to learning how to listen to those inner knowings, those inner gut feelings, the more we just start finding that there's this natural flow that takes over and it's something that it takes practice, but it's a really powerful practice. Is this something that you do and you get your, the people that you're coaching to do throughout the day are there Absolutely in the coaching work, especially I like to help people start learning how to access this more intuitive part of them, and learning how to trust it. For myself, this is part of my morning routine formally, where I'll sit in the morning, I'll close my eyes. And I breathe. And I just notice my busy minds already going. And I just invited to listen.
And then I just listen until I hear the non-business speaking, there's a place of peace that kind of comes up if you're willing to listen, and it's just like an inner knowing. And it's like, oh, you should you should call this person or, you know, you should, you should create this new song, or you should write this, or you should send this email off. And I listened and then I write it down. And I usually make that my first to do action items is I trust that first. And what I find is a lot of times, you know, that person that popped up in my, my intuition that's like, I should have called I call and they're like, I was just Have you know, because it's so connected at this level? So yeah, part of the coaching really, really invites people to learn how to access that place of wisdom. And remember that you have it.
It's just, I can speak for myself, there's days that I feel like I'm just trying to outrun my own anxiety. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, if I can go faster than the hamster that's running in my head then maybe I'll you know, somehow, I'll double back on it, you know, right. And I'm getting better with your help and the daily practice, but the people that I look up to, that I that look at - you're one of them - seem to move in rhythm seem to move slower. There's a deliberate sense to everything that they do.
Keith MacPherson 37:52
Yeah, it's more intentional. I guess. That's it. Yeah. There's a there's an exercise I do with groups quite often where I have people stand up. In the room and I say, just walk around at a pace in silence, walk around at a pace that would represent your day to day life. And as you can imagine, people get up and some of them are like, I don't even have enough room in this room to walk at a pace that represents my life, you know, I need to be like on a fast jog, to represent that. And in the exercise, I gradually slow them down, I say, okay, just split your pace in half, and then split your pace in half again, this is something we originally did in the coach training. I think you may have experienced this too.
And what I find what we find is at the end of it, you know, people, some people are actually just actually standing like they're not even moving anymore, and other people are walking a lot slower. And one way that I find this mindfulness stuff can really integrate is when we become conscious of the pace that we're moving. And when the mind that conscious mind part of us, then the hamster wheel as you referenced is running the show. Our pace just goes so much faster, because we're trying to keep up to all the demands in our heads. But when we take control back and we go, “Hang on, no, no, I'm going to slow down a little bit,” I find that I accomplished more, by trying less, I get a lot more done at a higher quality.
When I try less when I slow it down, and I just I let the moment inform it as opposed to my busy brain. It's like the most profound thing. And you know, they've you can even look it up. They've done a lot of research on this. I think Cornell University did a study about multitasking. And they, they talked about, you know, multitasking is only so effective when you're trying to do five things at once. When you slow it down, when you do one thing at a time. You do really accomplish more by trying less energy.
Matt Johnston 39:40
Yeah. And you're not really multitasking. You're just task switching. Right.
Keith MacPherson 39:45
Exactly. Yeah. And it's more intentional.
Matt Johnston 39:47
Yes. Earlier, you the word leadership came up. And you're obviously a coach to a number of leaders. What is what does leadership mean to you?
Keith MacPherson 39:58
Oh, wow, that's a great question. That's a huge that's another really big, obscure word to me. Because it's kind of like mindfulness that's like it's, it's used so often. And no one really seems to know exactly what it is. Or there's I should say, there's a lot of different perspectives on leadership. I'm actually on a quest right now myself, to understand that word more. So, I can't fully answer that question yet to be supposed to be totally honest.
What is leadership? Currently, like my current state of mind on leadership is somebody that is able to navigate from a place of inner knowing if that makes sense. I'm really big right now. And something that feels a bit edgy to even talk about and write about. It's something that I might call spiritual leadership. Hmm. And it's, it seems really out there in a way and I have a lot of like this imposter syndrome going on around it where there's a part of my mind that's like, "Don't even talk about this with Matt right now. Because people are going to be rolling their eyes while they listen to this spiritual leadership really?"
But okay, but I mean, this is like people that work right humans at work. So I think about this and you know, in a lot of the research I've been reading and what I've been experiencing in my coaching practice, is that the people that seem the most effective in leadership roles are the ones that are navigating towards something that we can't really put a lot of words on or research on right now. Because it's something to do with - it's more theoretical. It's like more like we're talking about intuition. It's like intuition. But it's like collective intuition. It's like this might get a bit obscure, but it's almost, it's what I might call spirit.
It's this place of oneness. It's this place of all connected, and very rarely do we remember to check in there and access it, but when we do, it's like, it's on Almost as if we're channels of the greater good, if that makes sense. It's like we're channeling wisdom from a higher place than even our own self could comprehend. And we're letting it come through and out into the world. Leadership to me, when I think about this is all about learning how to co create. It's like, we're in these physical bodies, right? And we're navigating through the world in them. But I do believe in something pure tele our wrote, he said, we're spiritual beings, having a temporary human experience. And it's a profound thing.
This might be the first time some of your listeners have heard this. But you know, some of you might even say it this way. It's like, we're a soul with a body, not a body with a soul. I mean, these bodies that we're in, have an expiry date, right, they do. We arrived here. We're here for so many years, and then we, the body's done, and I don't know about you, but when I see somebody lying in their casket, it's no longer them. There's something that has left, and I consider that the spirit, I consider that that like 1% spirit that we don't actually physically see. Yet we've really been conditioned in this world, and rightfully so because we have to navigate in the physical, we've been conditioned to believe that we are physical bodies. And that's all there is.
And we're separate from, but I believe that there is something inherently connecting us all together. And when we tap into that place of connection, and we lead from that place of connection, greater results just start happening because it's bigger than any one person. In leadership, it's like learning how to dance between the physical humaneness of us in this in the separate body, but also realizing that there is this place of oneness that we're all connected to, and how do we dance between those two places? It's, it's quite profound, and it's hard to put words on.
I'm hoping this makes sense as I'm speaking it out loud, because it's very new for me too, but it's um I think when I think of leadership, that's what I think of is somebody that has that awareness, that ability to lead from a place greater than themselves, yet they realize that they are in these temporary bodies, and they have to navigate as well in the so it's like almost two levels of reality that they're operating in.
Matt Johnston 44:18
Yeah, I mean, that's inspiring and sounds like a world that I want to live in and a person and a leader that I that - and anyone else who wants to be, you know - how does that how do you bring that into your into your day to day? What are the what are the practices to integrate?
Keith MacPherson 44:41
Yeah, that awareness.
Matt Johnston 44:43
Yeah. And I guess maybe another way of looking at it is, you know, what would you say to your 30-year-old nephew? Who's sitting in a workplace somewhere, and, you know, maybe has a personal life and wants to wants to make a difference in the world and what you just express this idea of spiritual leadership sounds incredible, but also, you know, somewhat intangible. Yeah.
Keith MacPherson 45:08
In the simplest form, I would say, if you were to just listen to it, what is your gut say? What does your gut say? What is the wisest part of you know, to be true here right now? That would be the question I would ask. And I would let my nephew answer that from that place. And if you just say, what's the wisest part of me wanting right now in this situation, and if you listen, you'll know there's a difference. You know, there's a difference between the wisdom of us and something you might call like, the ego of us, you know, what's the motivation but there's that that pure part of us that wisdom in us and it's like, what is your gut know to be true? And will you trust it? Will you have the courage to act on it?
Matt Johnston 45:52
You know what I've learned from you, Keith, is, you know, we started this conversation off with i ka pono manawa. And the topic of mindfulness, this sort of confusing topic of mindfulness. Yes. That word economists or weaves its way you know it's sort of encompasses everything that you do in my mind and the beautiful thing - about or at least to me what was so in encouraging really - about your book and you know our numerous conversations about this about what it means to live a mindful life is that it's more than the practices it's how you go through your day.
Keith MacPherson 46:37
It's a way of being. It's a way of being, yeah, a lot of people think mindfulness isn't an add-on on their to do list like, "Yeah, I did mindfulness," checkmark, but it's more so about noticing how am I being while I'm doing everything I'm doing? How am I being in this conversation? It's my mind wandering to some other place or am I here with this person, you know, and coming back when you notice you've wandered in Presence the power is in the present moment. That's really what this is about.
Matt Johnston 47:04
The power is in the present moment.
Keith MacPherson 47:06
Yeah, that's where you i ka pono manawa lives now is the moment of power. This is, this is perfectly on time right now. And if I'm listening and I'm attuned to this moment, I will get everything that I need right now. It's like remembering that it's that's how we that's how I be in the world. Yeah.
Matt Johnston 47:24
Amen.
Well, that's, that seems like a like a good place to end off for now. To be continued you, you know, as you know, I'm going to keep stalking you down. I'll do everything I can to get you back on the show. Oh, awesome. I'd love to where can where can people find you?
Keith MacPherson 47:48
Well, I'd like to get you on my podcast, when you're ready to, so people can find me and I'm just future visioning that you'll be on mine too. Sounds good, but people can find out more about the work. I'm doing. at my website, it's Keith MacPherson dot ca. And there's all sorts of tools and resources there. We've got a free ABCs of mindfulness course that people can take, there's a podcast there. I send out a morning, positive quote every morning called Daily Intentions, that people can sign up for and have a little positive start to their day.
Matt Johnston 48:19
Which I love.
Keith MacPherson 48:20
That's a that's definitely a channel piece of my work. It comes through every day from that, that wiser, higher self and I just write it down. So yeah, that's probably the best way is that my website.
Matt Johnston 48:30
And your new book, Making Sense of Mindfulness is in bookstores everywhere.
Keith MacPherson 48:35
Correct, yes, it's in bookstores, and it's online and Amazon and all those places. So awesome.
Matt Johnston 48:39
Yeah. Well, Keith, thank you so much for everything that you do. All the work you do in the world, and I can't wait for the next time we get to sit down and connect.
Keith MacPherson 48:53
Thanks so much, man. I absolutely love this podcast. And I'm such a huge fan mutually back at you. At all the work that you're doing to bring the humaneness into the workplace especially. And just the way that your heart expands and cares so deeply about this. So, thank you for having me here.
Matt Johnston 49:10
Thank you.